Recently, some of the world renown leading anti war and anti war criminal experts and activists met in Kuala Lumpur for the four day Kuala Lumpur Conference to Criminalise War Conference and Exhibition, which was followed by the Kuala Lumpur Criminalise War Commission meeting and Kuala Lumpur War Crime Tribunal presiding.
So much grounds gained from this event. Testimonies of people being taken by force against their will in a foreign country and then tortured by the Americans and British, which include in secret locations in another continent were presented. It was heart wrenching. Then event saw so many leading anti war ciminal activists acknowledged Former Prime Minister Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad’s work under the Perdana Global Peace Organisation to make war illegal and a crime and reprimand leaders who started war.
Then a pro-PM Dato’ Seri Najib Tun Razak blogger raised that Malaysia under Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad (then Fourth Prime Minister) and PM ‘Flip-Flop’ Tun Abdullah Ahmad Badawi (then Minister of Foreign Affairs) gave a nation’s award to Chilean Military Leader General Augusto Ramon Pinonchet, back in 1995. For the record, General Pinochet was the President of Chile from 1973-1990.
The argument put forth is that General Pinochet staged a coup d’etat in 1973 and arrested and tortured thousands of Chilean in their own prison.
The fact is that, General Pinochet was a Leader of Chile, who was a friend to Malaysia. Chile has had a continuous good diplomatic and economic relationship with Malaysia and an important friend in South America. In fact in 1992, Tun Dr. Mahathir then as the Prime Minister made a state visit Chile in a tour of South America. Chile, under General Pinochet did not wage an illegal war against another country. Nor did they they illegally extracted non Chileans in another country and prison and torture them in Chilean prisons or any prisons outside Chile manned by Chilean soldiers and military intelligence.
As far as Malaysia is concerned, Chile handled her own domestic issues. Malaysia has had a policy on non intervention into other country’s domestic issues. Same reason why Malaysia abstained entirely from the issue when Chinese military closed in on the Tiananmen Square protesters and more than 2,600 non combatants were killed on the fatefully June 1989 Beijing incident. It is also reflected in the Tamil separatists insurgence against Sri Lanka.
It was a vast difference from what US Presiden George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair did. Bush and Blair waged an illegal war against Afghanistan and later Iraq and merciless extracted non Americans and British out of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq and take them to Guantanamo Bay and torture them. This has been going on for years and even a boy of 12 was subjected to this inhumanity. Until today, US and British troops are still carrying military operations that kill non combatant Afghans, including women, children, physically challenged and old people. Worse of all, they use weapons such as depleted uranium shell and chemical warfare in the military operations.
That is an act of an illegal war!
On that note, Chile never got around reprimanding General Pinochet for his crimes against the Chilean people (when they had all the opportunities). General Pinochet was even made a Senator and the Chilean Congress ammended their Consititution to acknowledge ‘ex-presidents’. He eventually died in a military hospital. Even Chilean military gave him a Commander in Chief’s funeral in full military honours (usually accorded to either a Statesman or War Hero), drapped in the Chilean flag and flags flew half mast across the nation. Hundred of thousand Chileans mourned his passing.
Most probably if had the Chileans reprimanded General Pinochet as a criminal before 1995, one would not think that Malaysia would accord him with any awards. In 1995, Chile, Chileans and General Pinochet are friends to Malaysia. They still are. Same as China, Chinese and Chinese Leaders such as Deng Xiaopeng, Li Peng, Jiao Zemin, Zhao Ziyang, Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao.
*Updated Monday 2 November 2009 330pm
As of noon today, blogger Barking Magpie took out his posting “Under Mahathir, Malaysia gave the highest military award to a mass murdered?! So how!”, almost 17 hours after BigDogDotCom came out with this posting. Unfortunately, the reference of this article has now become invalid.
In your view, massacre in a domestic war should be accepted as compare to massacre in an international war. So in your opinion and perhaps your religion according to your interpretation, suffering through domestic war should be ignored as compare to international war. Hypocrite!
War is war!
Whether it was illegal or not, people got killed and suffered.
So by your standard, Palestinian suffering is by formal definition a war within the Israel state. It is a domestic war which by your standard is no ‘crime’ at all!
So don’t spin the story, it was a FACT that Pinochet did killed thousands of Chilean.
Israel is an illegal state created by British on Palestine. In 1948, the illegal state of Israel attacked Palestinians in the homes.
So they did again in 1956 when they crossed the Suez canal. Again in 1967. Again in 1973 Ramadhan War.
In 2006, they illegally attacked Lebanon.
Pinochet killed Chileans in Chile is a domestic issue. It is was never an international issue.
So THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION WHO IS GOING TO MISS SORU U OR THE BARKING BIRD.
Good writing bigguy , nobody said domestic war is alright .
The only thing concern our mind is Pinochet was part of Milton Friedman’s shock therapy. Anyway Malaysia was doing right thing not to intervene in other country domestic issues.
‘Pinochet killed Chileans in Chile is a domestic issue. It is was never an international issue.’
Pinochet was supported by the Yankees in their proxy war against the communist. It is precisely this Yankee support which turn the killings into an international issue. Allende’s democratically-elected government with CIA support was overthrown by General Pinochet in a coup d’etat. Then the killings followed.
Be careful of how you spin Pinochet’s crimes here. The Straits of Malacca is eyed by many great powers and Malaysia is one of the countries to control if any great power wants to dominate the Straits. After the 2004 Tsunami, the USS Blue Ridge literally remapped the entire Straits of Malacca and so did the other great powers. No one is ever secure in the face of a great power. Justifying CIA interference in Chile as a domestic issue only opens Malaysia to the same kind of interference by a great power. Is this what you want? Remember, the Straits of Malacca is safe today because there is no one to challenge US policy of keeping the Straits open to everyone because no one can project power in the same way the Yanks can with their aircraft carriers. All that is about to change though. It only takes a few percent of your people to work with a great power and turn the country into a killing zone and that was what happened in Chile.
You have been warned.
Vinnan
“It only takes a few percent of your people to work with a great power and turn the country into a killing zone and that was what happened in Chile.”
Wow! What would Anwar Ibrahim think about that?
Bigdog,
Pinochet tortured 28,000 people and killed 3,200 of them.General Pinochet scoffed at his human rights critics. Asked about the discovery of a mass grave of his government’s victims, he was quoted in the Chilean press as joking that it was an “efficient” way of burial.
Orlando Letelier, foreign minister in the Allende government,was killed by a car bomb in Washington in September 1976, along with an American, Ronni Moffitt. The incident, considered the worst act of state-sponsored terrorism on American soil, strained relations between Chile and the United States for almost two decades.
So what say you?How about post-humus accolade for Pinochet?
Surrogate
These are issues Chileans themselves should address. Of course when they had the opportunity. Gen. Pinochet lived another 16 years as a Non President and yet Chileans did not reprimand him for his crimes against their fellow countrymen.
Gen Pinochet was succeded by democratically elected Patricio Alywin and other democratically elected Chilean leaders. The Chilean rakyat could do something then but they did not.
Diplomatically and economically, Gen Pinochet and Chile was and is a friend to Malaysia. And in 1995, we acknowldged that friendship.
You really dont make sense to me. Janganlah taksub sangat Tun M sampai apa yang obviously salah pun nak defend macam betul. Tun is only human, he makes and made mistakes macam manusia biasa. So this is one mistake chalked to him that we know of. I am not surprised if there are many more. This does not lessen his great contributions to Malaysia. But kita sebagai rakyat yang berfikiran, waras & pandai boleh nilaikan yang hitam dan yang putih dan kekadang yang kelabu asap.
Yang kita boleh taksub hanyalah ALLAH SWT dan Nabi Muhammad SAW.
By the way Big Dog, dah sambut birthday ni, reporting tu biarlah responsible dan ada evidence sikit, ok.
Ha ha ha – I think I call it …bagai menegakkan benang basah.
When sitting in a moral high stool , everybody is a hypocrite except the persons who call the others as one.
Let us all be hermits, avoid being leaders, do away with dealing with anyone and be cleansed with all sins so that we are free to pass our judgment to the sinners.
Your Grace,
Very wise reminder indeed. As they say, “Rolling stones gather no moss”. I guess stones covered in slimy moss is because it does not move at all!
“When ignorance is bliss, its wise to be folly”. I’d reckon too many “smart people” in this posting. They, unfortunately go for ‘form’ (as our 15 year old argument still stand!). Or so they say.
Wenger
Stick to praising KJ to God-like figure. You are progammed for that and only that.
KJ has not instructed his programmer to change the thinking code for you. He badly still needs the pembodek to keep his illusion of self grandeur alive.
Apa cerita Arsenal over the weekend, Sir Anuar?
BD,
Pinochet was a tinpot dictator of a banana republic. Ask any Chilean that. He is the latin answer to Pol Pot. Shows your idea of leadership….
BigDog,
U write very very well and give very thorough analysis and expose good issues into the public domain. however, your support toward the late Pinochet is questionable. No such thing as Democracy in Chile in his day….Human Rights violation…..a questionable leader..
Thank you.
We are not supporting Gen. Pinochet in any way. Neither did we ever agree with what he did to the Chilean public, during his military regime (1973-1990).
We are just highlighting the fact that after he was no longer sitting as President and Leader of Chile, he remained as a citizen for another sixteen years before the Lord called him upstairs. During that period, several democratic government were voted in. None of the these government, which represented the people of Chile and the their aspiration ever reprimanded Gen. Pinochet. In fact, when he died in 2006, Chilean military gave him a Commander in Chief’s funeral, which was attended by hundreds of thousand of Chilean.
That is the whole point. Since a democratic Chile did not regard Gen. Pinochet as a ‘criminal’ back in 1995 (when President Patricio Alwyn was democratically elected into office) Malaysia, under PM Dato’ Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, DPM Anwar “Mat King Leather” Ibrahim, Foreign Minister Dato’ Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi and Defense Minister Dato’ Seri Syed Hamid Al Bar accorded Gen. Pinochet with a national award.
But what did Pinochet do to deserve an award?
.Pinochet and the Chileans are friends of Malaysians? Thats all…the facts are certainly lacking once again
Big Dog,
Face it, Pinochet doesnt deserve anything but to explain to the almighty the atrocities he committed during his time.
Diplomatically, Gen. Pinochet and Chile are friends of Malaysia. Just like Hunsen and Cambodia (who happens to be our immediate neighbour and thus we show our espirit d’corp as an ASEAN member). Same goes with China and Sri Lanka, where these ‘friends’ of ours slaughter their own people. Malaysia did not get involve when PM Indira Ghandi ordered troops to storm (“Operaton Blue Star”) the golden temple of Amritsar on 6 June 1984, where over 500 persons perished in the Sikhs’ holiest shrine.
Even small countries like Fiji, where Col. Sitiveni Rabuka staged a coup d’etat in 1987 and later so did Commodore Frank Baininarama (who deposed democratically elected government of Mahendra Chaudury).
We do not get involved in their domestic affairs, unless sanctioned by the UN. Just because we kept ’silent’ on these domestic armed conflicts, doesn’t mean we condone it in anyway, at anytime. We let the citizens of these countries deal with their own issues, their own way. As far as Malaysia is concerned, they are our ‘friends’ unless they show hostility to Malaysia.
Then we should give our highest awards to the rulers of the following countries (on the basis, you are a friend unless you chose to attack Malaysia i.e. default Friendship and deserving the Highest Award)
Zimbabwe, Zambia, Yemen, Viet Nam, Venezuela, Vanuatu, Uzbekistan, Uruguay, United Republic of Tanzania, United Arab Emirates, Ukraine, Uganda, Tuvalu, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Tunisia, Trinidad and Tobago, Tonga, Togo, Timor-Leste, Tajikistan, Syrian Arab Republic, Switzerland, Sweden, Swaziland, Suriname, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Spain, South Africa, Somalia, Solomon Islands, Slovenia, Slovakia, Singapore, Sierra Leone, Seychelles, Serbia, Senegal, Saudi Arabia, Sao Tome and Principe, San Marino, Samoa, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Rwanda, Russian Federation, Romania, Republic of Moldova, Republic of Korea, Qatar, Portugal, Poland, Peru, Paraguay, Papua New Guinea, Panama, Palau, Pakistan, Oman, Norway, Nigeria, Niger, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Netherlands, Nepal, Nauru, Namibia, MyanmaR, Mozambique, Morocco, Montenegro, Mongolia, Monaco, Micronesia, Mexico, Mauritius, Mauritania, Marshall Islands, Malta, Mali, Maldives, Malawi, Madagascar, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Liechtenstein, Libya, Liberia, Lesotho, Lebanon, Latvia, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Kyrgyzstan, Kuwait, Kiribati, Kenya, Kazakhstan, Jordan, Japan, Jamaica, Italy, Ireland, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, India, Iceland, Hungary, Honduras, Haiti, Guyana, Guinea-Bissau, Guinea, Guatemala, Grenada, Greece, Ghana, Germany, Georgia, Gambia, Gabon, France, Finland, Fiji, Ethiopia, Estonia, Eritrea, Equatorial Guinea, El Salvador, Egypt, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Dominica, Djibouti, Denmark, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Cuba, Croatia, Côte d’Ivoire, Costa Rica, Congo, Comoros, Colombia, China, Chile, Chad, Central African Republic, Cape Verde, Canada, Cameroon, Cambodia, Burundi, Burkina Faso, Bulgaria, Brunei Darussalam, Brazil, Botswana, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bolivia, Bhutan, Benin, Belize, Belgium, Belarus, Barbados, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Bahamas, Azerbaijan, Austria, Australia, Armenia, Argentina, Antigua and Barbuda, Angola, Andorra, Algeria, Albania, Afghanistan
Like that the highest award has no quality rite?
Bro bigdog,
You said:
“During that period, several democratic government were voted in. None of the these government, which represented the people of Chile and the their aspiration ever reprimanded Gen. Pinochet”
and,
..”Since a democratic Chile did not regard Gen. Pinochet as a ‘criminal’ back in 1995 ..”
In 1980, a new Constitution backed by the Pinochet government made the armed forces “guarantors of institutionality,” giving them biggest role as political arbiters.
But in a 1988, an ample majority of Chileans voted against an attempt by General Pinochet to stay on as president for eight more years.
He staged unannounced military maneuvers or placed his troops on sudden alert and gave notice that he would not tolerate attempts to prosecute his era’s human rights violators. “The day they touch one of my men, the rule of law ends,” he warned in 1991.
When he finally stepped down as army chief, he joined the Senate as an unelected, permanent member, apparently intending to grant himself further immunity from prosecution.
In October 1998, while recuperating in a London clinic from a back operation, he was arrested by the British police in response to an application from a Spanish judge seeking the general’s extradition to Madrid to stand trial on charges of genocide, torture and kidnapping.
A 16-month legal battle ensued, ending with a decision to send him back to Chile in March 2000 because his physical and mental ailments made him unfit to stand trial. Days after his return, Ricardo Lagos, the first Socialist to be elected president since the 1973 overthrow of Mr. Allende, assumed office.
For the rest of his life, the general had to fight off lawsuits and accept the humiliation of constant news reports about widespread brutality under his rule. President Lagos allowed the hundreds of criminal complaints filed against General Pinochet to run their course in the courts.
The truth is in mid-90’s,Chile is the economic power house in the region with average annual growth of 6%.Malaysia is in the verge of looking for a suitable country as a hub for export for our product especially palm oil,rubber,electronic component,to penetrate southern Latin American countries.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why Malaysia gave the highest military award to a mass murderer!
Surrogate
Surrogate,
I think its wrong to assume that Chile did well under Pinochet. Once democracy was restored, under Michelle Bachelet, they did even better.
I have reproduced an article for bloomberg with the hyperlink (too long for a post)
Harvard Peso Doctor Vindicated as Chile Evades Slump (Update1)
April 23 (Bloomberg) — Thousands of government workers marched on downtown Santiago last November, burning an effigy of Chilean Finance Minister Andres Velasco and calling him “disgusting” as a strike for higher wages paralyzed public services.
Five months later, polls show that Velasco is President Michelle Bachelet’s most popular minister. During a three-year copper boom he and central bank President Jose De Gregorio set aside $48.6 billion, more than 30 percent of the country’s gross domestic product, that he is now using for tax cuts, subsidies and cash handouts to poor families.
The Chilean peso has risen almost 10 percent against the dollar this year to become the best-performing currency among emerging markets. The country’s economy is expected to grow 0.1 percent in 2009, as the region contracts 1.5 percent, according to the International Monetary Fund. While Chile stashed away copper profits, neighboring Argentina boosted spending when revenue from soybean exports rose, leaving it short on cash to stimulate the economy this year.
Click here for further details
In the 1980s, seeking out Chile as a trading partner is not in the best interest of Malaysia. There are so many geopolitical issue with identifying with the Pinochet regime. The biggest Latin American market was still is Brazil. If indeed, the Government wanted to open up markets, would it not make more sense to engage Brazil which has 190 million people vs. Chile which has 16 million?
Furthermore, if Malaysia is indeed forever linked with Pinochet’s name, when democracy was returned , what will our standing be with the country?
Wenger,
New York Times
11/12/2006
In presidential elections 1988, the former dictator’s candidate was handily defeated by Patricio Aylwin, a centrist Christian Democrat supported by parties of the left. In 1993, another Christian Democrat, Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle, was elected president by an even greater margin.
To the delight of the Chilean business community, foreign investment, which had been stunted during the years the government was regarded with international opprobrium, poured back into the country, and Chilean products were welcomed everywhere abroad. Officials of the new Christian Democratic administration were not inclined to tinker with the roaring economic machine they inherited from the Pinochet administration.
“We may not like the government that came before us,” Alejandro Foxley, who was finance minister under Mr. Aylwin and is foreign minister today, said in a 1991 interview. “But they did many things right. We have inherited an economy that is an asset.”
Surrogate
Mixed feelings when reading your post,sound very much like 2004 GE. Not identical but it does rhyme.
It was good to have Tun Mahathir speak and chair the Kuala Lumpur Conference to Criminalise War Conference and Exhibition, and the Kuala Lumpur Criminalise War Commission meeting and Kuala Lumpur War Crime Tribunal presiding. The crimes and murders of the Zionist Anglo American Capitalist Dadaists in the world must be exposed for the world to see.
It is sad to see BarkingMagpie criticize the Tun in such a manner. As BigDog has articulately explained, Pinochet is a friend to Malaysia. Mahathir has bought ranches in Chile as part of the bilateral prosper-thy-neighbour policy.
What Pinochet did in his country is none of our business. To intervene into the crackdowns, disapearances, crimes and murders of Chile will be against our policy of non-inteference.
Malaysia has a policy of noninterference & prosper thy neighbor to maintain good deplomatic relations. We don’t interfere when…
=Indonesia conquered Irian Jaya and East Timor.
=Libya started war with Chad
=South African & Angola went to war
=Pol Pot started civil war
Israel and USA is different. Bosnia is different. These are Muslims. As a Muslim, we must pay specific attention when our fellow Ummah are being attacked. Otherwise there is no need…
Once again, kudos to bigdog in rebutting the criticism to Tun Mahathir.